tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-270645297722720702.post3512336106074218012..comments2023-05-14T08:38:40.185+01:00Comments on Trias Thaumaturga: The Oak of KildareMarcellahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02234781374292930330noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-270645297722720702.post-70918886019758085492022-08-18T12:13:12.409+01:002022-08-18T12:13:12.409+01:00Sorry for not getting back to you sooner on your f...Sorry for not getting back to you sooner on your follow-up comments but I am dealing with a number of health issues. I am not in a position right now to really do any in-depth research but here are a few thoughts to keep you going:<br /><br />First - the necessity for a male cleric. This too comes from the 9th c. Bethu Brigte which records her supposed episcopal consecration:<br /><br />41<br /><br />At the end of the day everybody went apart out of the assembly for hospitality. There was a good man living on the bank of the river called Seir. He sent his slave to the assembly to call Brigit, saying to his household: ‘The holy maiden who performed the wonderful miracle in the assembly-place today, I want her to consecrate my house tonight.’ He welcomed her. ‘Let water be put on our hands’, said her maidens<br /><br />________________________________<br /><br />p.32<br /><br />to Brigit, ‘here is our food.’ ‘It is of no use now’, said Brigit. ‘For the Lord has shown me that this is a heathen home, with the one exception only of the slave who summoned us. On that account I shall not eat now.’ The good man finds this out, namely that Brigit was fasting until he should be baptized. ‘I have said indeed’, said he, ‘that Patrick and his household would not baptize me. For your sake, however, I will believe’, [said he] to Brigit. ‘I do not mind provided that you be baptized’, said Brigit. ‘There is not a man in orders with me. Let someone go from us to Patrick, so that a bishop or priest may come to baptize this man.’ Brón came and baptized the man with all his household at sunrise. They eat at midday. They return thanks. They come to holy Patrick. Patrick said: ‘You should not go about without a priest. Your charioteer should always be a priest.’ And that was observed by Brigit's abbesses up to recent times.<br /><br />https://celt.ucc.ie/published/T201002/<br /><br />Why is this piece of hagiographical evidence from the same source ignored while the Bishop Mel consecration is invested with the authority of holy writ? If Brigid had really been regarded as a bishop wouldn't Cogitosus, her earlier biographer who was himself from the Kildare community, have shouted that from the rooftops? Instead he emphasizes her joint rule with Bishop Conleth.<br /><br />Second- the ref in the Book of Leinster. I would read this as a simple acknowledgment of Kildare's status. For all that I don't believe Brigid exercised episcopal authority, Kildare was not just any monastery. It at one time presented a serious challenge to the claims of primacy over the Irish church made by Armagh, who claimed Patrick. Neither was Brigid just any abbess, as her LIves make clear, but her supposed episcopal status was entirely symbolic. There is no evidence to show that she or any other woman ever exercised the actual office of a bishop.<br /><br />If you can access Lisa Bitel's 'Landscape with Two Saints- how Genovefa of Paris and Brigit of Kildare Built Christianity in Barbarian Europe' - she has a good discussion of Kildare and all of these matters.<br /><br />Hope that gives you something to go on, I would normally respond more quickly and thoroughly but this is the best I can do right now.<br /><br />Marcellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02234781374292930330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-270645297722720702.post-79352821600534890662022-08-11T02:10:55.215+01:002022-08-11T02:10:55.215+01:00Thank you kindly for your responses. I read your a...Thank you kindly for your responses. I read your article on abbesses and it was very helpful. I was already fairly certain there was no tradition of female bishops in Ireland; I was more curious what the Leabhar Breac meant by that comment that "the men of Ireland give the honour of bishop to Brigit's successor." In other words, was the myth of abbesses as bishops a modern innovation, or was this actually a tale that medieval people told? <br /><br />Where is the passage you referenced about needing to bring a male cleric for baptism?Bonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-270645297722720702.post-67306641009189669012022-08-10T22:31:35.072+01:002022-08-10T22:31:35.072+01:00It is also important to remember that hagiography ...It is also important to remember that hagiography is not history and does not necessarily describe events which actually happened in the saint's lifetime. I read the Brigid was a bishop episode as part of the rivalry between Kildare and Armagh for primacy in the Irish church. Kildare knew their claims could not challenge those of Armagh and St Patrick as their champion was a woman. Marcellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02234781374292930330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-270645297722720702.post-55140690266892168582022-08-10T22:25:52.915+01:002022-08-10T22:25:52.915+01:00There is no evidence to show that the abbess of Ki...There is no evidence to show that the abbess of Kildare or any other woman exercised actual episopal authority in medieval Ireland. If St Brigid was a bishop why did she need Conleth who was buried with her in the church at Kildare, he on the right and she on the left? Why does the same Life that tells us she was ordained, albeit accidentally, as a bishop contradict this by also telling us that she had to be sure to bring a male priest with her as she was unable to perform sacramental baptism? I am actually working on a post on this subject and will try to bump it further up the draft folder!Marcellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02234781374292930330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-270645297722720702.post-46882655322451144462022-08-10T22:17:34.194+01:002022-08-10T22:17:34.194+01:00I posted a discussion of the role of abbess in med...I posted a discussion of the role of abbess in medieval Ireland at my other site here: https://www.omniumsanctorumhiberniae.com/2013/01/saint-fine-abbess-of-kildare-january-9.htmlMarcellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02234781374292930330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-270645297722720702.post-86391795474126586832022-08-09T04:00:46.838+01:002022-08-09T04:00:46.838+01:00Hi Marcella! Forgive the comment on such an old po...Hi Marcella! Forgive the comment on such an old post, but I am researching Kildare and thought you'd be the person to ask because of your excellent knowledge of this subject:<br /><br />It is frequently asserted that the abbesses of Kildare were regarded as "bishops," but I can never find any documentation backing this up, nor explanation of what it means. I am familiar with the story of Bishop Mel accidentally praying the order of consecration over her, and of this the Leabhar Breac says, "Hence, it is that the men of Ireland give the honour of bishop to Brigit's successor." I am fairly certain the abbesses of Kildare were never regarded as "bishops" in the strict sense; but what does the passage from the Leabhar Breac mean, and are you aware of any other texts that reference the abbesses of Kildare having episcopal honor?<br /><br />If you do not wish to publish this comment, you may email me at uscatholicam@gmail.com. Thank you kindly!<br /><br />BonifaceBonifacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10672810254075072214noreply@blogger.com